Fuso Components

I am often asked, “What was the standard component package on the Fuso?” or John Howard, or Recherché.

The answer: There was no standard component package. The reason, I only sold frames, not complete bikes.

The frames were ordered by bicycle dealers, usually for a specific customer, who then chose the components and the bike shop ordered these in and built the bike.

Often what happened was the customer could not afford an all Campagnolo or Shimano Dura-Ace equipped bike. So the dealer built the bike with lower priced components like Sugino, Sun Tour, or Shimano 600.

The thinking was, (And I agreed.) the frame is what determines how the bike fits, handles, and feels to the rider. Wheels are the next important factor, but after that a Sugino crankset, or cheaper pedals will, for the most part, feel no different than Campagnolo. The main difference is the quality of finish and the durability of the product, not so much in the ride quality.

The theory was, get a newcomer on a quality frame, get them hooked on cycling and they would come back and upgrade to a better quality component later. This was a smart business move for the Bike Dealer, and it sold frames for me.

For about the same price as say a mid range Japanese or European import, a customer could get on one of my frames with lower priced components. And of course when the customer compared the mid range import and my bike on a test ride they could feel the difference.

That was the theory. In reality what happened in many cases, the bike purchase was an impulse thing, and after a short period, the bike ended up sitting in the garage where many still languish to this day. 

From time to time such a bike comes up on eBay, often with a mish-mosh of cheap components.

If you are buying such a bike, realize that you are basically buying it for the frame.

If you strip the components to replace them with, say Campagnolo; these left over parts will have little or no resale value.

On the other hand, many may not want such a bike. If you can buy it at a bargain price, you can ride as originally intended and upgrade the components as they become available.

All frames I built were measured center to top which is approximately 2 cm. more that the center to center measurement. For example frame stamped 58 under the bottom bracket shell, would measure 56 cm. center to center. Also, if it is a Fuso and you ask the seller for the frame number, you can link to my Registry here and get the approximate date it was built.

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Ebay Prices and my Bike Registry

 

It has been over ten years since I opened my “Bike Registry” in August 2010. My blog had started five years earlier in 2005 and a result I was getting emails from owners of bikes I had built. I realized in order to preserve these bikes there needed to be information online, so someone finding one would realize the bike had value, and there were people interested in owning one.

The Registry has worked because there is hardly a week goes by, that I don’t get two or three emails from people who have inherited a Fuso, or another bike I built, or they found one in a yard-sale, and they want to know how much it is worth.

The value of a frame or bike that I built is the amount the owner is prepared to sell it for, and the price the buyer is prepared to pay. It is the same for all vintage bicycles, or for that matter any used item for sale.

I can tell you over the last ten years that my Registry has existed, the price has held steady, on average around $500 or $600. A really nice one in mint condition with top-of-the-line components will occasionally go for $1,000, or even more. But there has to be someone willing to pay that much for a bike that is the size that the buyer needs.

On eBay at the time I am writing this there are five bikes with frames I built, priced between $695 and $2,400, plus $100 to $150 for shipping. The bike that is priced at $2,400 (Pictured above.) has been on eBay for at least three years. It may be worth that much to someone, it is in mint condition, and anyone would be hard pressed to fine a nicer one. Obviously, the owner is holding out for the right buyer.

I always assume that when someone asks me for a value of a bike or frame, they expect to sell in in a reasonable amount of time. Let me tell you a true story.

About a year ago, someone emailed me to tell me they had bought a Fuso at a yard sale for $19 and asked me what it was worth. I told him $500, thinking that this was a nice little return on his investment. Within minutes of sending the email the bike appeared on eBay at a $1,000 “Buy it now” price.

I was a little annoyed, I thought, ‘Why waste my time asking for a valuation.’ Then just to rub it in, the bike sold for $1,000 by the end of that first day, and the seller emailed me to say I had given him bad information.

This is not the end of the story. A little over a week later the person who bought the bike emailed me, excited about his purchase, and wanted to add it to the registry. He sent pictures and asked me how to fix the rusted out top tube guides. Now I felt bad for him, I could not bring myself to tell he had paid way too much for the bike.

I hate to see people get screwed, whether they are buyers or sellers. Had this seller, sold the bike for $500, I would have been happy for his good fortune, and I would not have felt so bad that the buyer had paid $1,000 for what amounts to a piece of rusted out junk.

I do not influence or set prices, and neither does the presence of my Registry. Prices of vintage bikes went down in the crash of 2008, and have yet to go back to what they were prior to that. I remember a year or so before 2008 one of my custom ‘dave moulton’ bikes went for $3,000. I have not seen anything that high since.

Simple supply and demand create the prices. I have a Facebook Group page with about 1,300 members, that is probably the extent of my following. I built 2,400 Fuso frames plus the other brands. There is a good supply out there for anyone who cares to look for one.

If all you can find is a rough one in your size, you can at least ride it until a nicer one comes along, and if you did not overpay for your first bike or frame, you can sell it for what you paid for it. Do not buy vintage frames as an investment. Entered into wisely it can be a rewarding hobby that will bring hours of pleasure and healthy outdoor exercise.

Many bikes that come up for sale have been in storage for years in a garage or storage unit, the owner will ask top dollar for it, but the bike has twenty years of dirt and grime on it. Or they cannot even make an effort to drag the bike outside to take some decent pictures, they post photos of the bike still amongst the clutter it was discovered.

Wash the bike with soap and water as you would a car, do not wipe the dirt off with a dry rag or you will scratch the paint. Chances are if the bike has spent most of its life in storage it will clean up like new and will be worth more.

On the other hand, if the bike has been stored in a barn or shed without climate control, or worse still, outside under a tarpaulin, chances are the aluminum components will be badly corroded, and the frame rusted. The bike still has some value but far less than one in nice condition. However, you may get a hundred dollars or more for it, and someone may get pleasure in restoring it. Rather that than send it to the dump.

If you have one to sell it is your prerogative to ask as much as you feel you can get. You can always come down in price. One suggestion, you start the bidding at $500 or lower and place a reserve on it at $1,000 or whatever you think it is worth and see how high the bidding will go.

If you are a buyer, the prices you see on eBay are what the sellers are asking, not necessarily what the bike is worth, it is worth what you are willing to pay. Join the Dave Moulton Bikes Facebook group it is a good place to find bikes for sale by other DMB enthusiasts who know the true value of bikes I built is not in a dollar amount but the way it feels to ride one.

Here is another article with tips on buying a used bike, and a PDF file you can download and print, on “Packing a bike for shipping.”

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Supply and Demand

 

This week a bike I built, (Pictured above.) a Fuso FRX model, is up for sale on eBay. The asking price is $2,500. That is more than twice what it would sell for if it were offered on open auction. More money than it cost new in 1990, when it was built. See this article here.

It is a nice one I will admit, in almost mint condition, it has obviously had little use, but I built 2,400 Fuso frames between 1984 and 1993. They are not that rare. Maybe one of my custom ‘dave moulton’ bikes, if it were in this condition, might go for over $2,000, but I only built 216 of those. Big difference.

How about “Demand,” the other side of the equation? I have a Registry that has (At the time of writing.) 358 Fuso bikes listed. Some owners have more than one Fuso in their collection, so this is less than 358 owners. Not a large number considering there were over 2,400 built.

These are owners who care enough about the Fuso brand to email me with details so I can add their bike to the list. So let me ask this. Given the relatively small number of true Fuso enthusiasts, how many would be owners are waiting in the wings, on the lookout for a frame or bike to buy? Not many, and not at these outrageous prices.

The problem Is, the bikes on eBay offered at these high prices, rarely sell. They just sit there for weeks on end, then they disappear for a while, only to be relisted again at a later date, at the same high price. So when someone happens to inherit a Fuso, or they find one in a thrift store, or garage sale. (It does happen.) They see these greatly inflated prices on eBay, and think they have struck gold.

The “Supply and Demand” factor came into play when the frames were built. There were more of the mid sizes built, 56, 57, and 58 centimeters. These were in greater demand, because there are more cyclists that fall within these sizes. The next most popular were the sizes above and below these sizes, namely 59, 60, 61, and 53, 54, 55 centimeter.

There were fewer very large and very small sizes built because there were less people needing these sizes. The same supply and demand factor applies today. There will be more demand for the mid-size frames, however, there will be more of these coming up for sale, because there were more of the built.   

Conversely, the very large or very small frames are in less demand, but there were fewer built. This means if an extreme large or small frame comes up for sale, you may get it at a bargain price, because you are the only one needing that size. On the other hand if there are two or more bidders, the price will go higher.

The buyer then has to make a decision. Pay more, or wait for another to come along in this size, knowing it might be a while because of its comparative rarity. Whether you pay more or not, depends a lot on the frame’s condition. If, for example the paint is really nice, pay a little extra. If the paint is rough, let it go.

Educate yourself by following sales on eBay and Craig’s List. Join the “Dave Moulton Bikes” group on Facebook. Members there are always posting and discussing bikes for sale. I have no financial interest on any frames sold online, so I have no interest in influencing prices. I just hate to see anyone get ripped off, whether they are buyer or seller.

I try to maintain interest in the brands I built, John Howard, Fuso, Recherché, etc., with this blog, and my Registry. My loyalty is with the people who own and ride bikes I built, not those who wish to profit unfairly with over-inflated prices.

I will not be building any more frames, so the supply will never increase, but there are still plenty out there in people’s basements and garages, waiting to be discovered. When the list of Fuso owners on my Registry reaches a thousand, I will consider there is a demand.

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Making sense of eBay prices

The Fuso frame pictured above, recently sold on eBay for $303, which seems to be about the going rate for a frame and fork. I would consider this a fair price.

The frame was listed as undamaged, but the original paint showed signs of normal wear and tear, with a fair amount of chips and scratches. My advice would be to build this frame up into bike up and ride it, as is. If you start thinking about re-painting, a good paint job will set you back $700, or more.

Now you have $300 the frame cost you, plus $700, $1,000 invested. Not including the cost of shipping when you bought it on eBay, and then the shipping to, and back from the painter.

Fuso frames or not rare, I built around 2,400 between 1984 and 1993. So the best option is to ride this bike as is, and wait for another to come along with paint in better condition. There were a lot of Fuso bikes that were bought on a whim, then hardly ever used. Rarely does a week goes by that one or two frames I built come up on eBay.

So if one comes up for sale in the size you want, be prepared to pay a little more if it has really nice paint.

It will still be hundreds of dollars cheaper than refinishing, and original paint will retain a higher resale value than a repaint.

Don’t forget too that the original frame you bought for $300 you can put back on eBay and get most, if not all your money back.

Here is where I don’t quite follow the logic behind some eBay bidding. It seems people balk at paying much over $300 for a frame and fork. But as I have just explained if you paid $200 more for really nice paint, it is far cheaper, and better than buying a beat up frame and refinishing.

Plus there is this to consider. The beat up frame probably has been ridden hard for tens of thousands of miles, whereas the frame with pristine paint has had little use, with no more than a few hundred miles on it. It is as if you had gone back in time and just bought it from a bike store.

Take for example this bike shown above left, and below, it was listed recently at $1,400 and had no bidders. The going rate for a complete bike seems to be between $500 and $800. Rarely does anyone bid on anything over $1,000. Regardless of condition, which is what I don’t quite understand.

The original finish on this one is really nice with just a few minor nicks in the paint. It has top of the line Campagnolo components, with Delta brakes. These alone would resell on eBay for $250 or more.

This next Fuso Lux bike is another. (Below.) Currently listed on eBay at $2,000 “Buy it Now” price, or auctioned starting at $1200. I have followed the history on this one. About a year ago, this frame was new in a box, stored in someone’s attic and never used. The current owner bought it and built it up with modern Scram components. Then the owner found it was a tad small for him. Hence it is on sale.

This is a Fuso “Lux,” the top of the line, no expense spared model. It was brand new a year ago, and you could not have got me to build a frame a year ago at any price.  The circumstances of this bike are rare and the $2,000 price tag, I think is fair.

Of course I realze people will pay what they can afford and what they think an item is worth. Maybe most just want a bike to ride, and nice paint is not an issue. 

I would like to point out that I don’t know any of the people selling these bikes or frames that I have mentioned, and I have no financial interest in any of these sales. I just don’t like to see people get ripped off, whether they are a buyer or a seller.

Here are some tips to consider when buying a used frame or complete bike on eBay.

1.)    Don’t buy a frame with the front fork missing. Ask for the fork. Was it damaged in a crash? A bent steel for can be safely straightened, but expect to pay a greatly reduced price. Also make sure the top and down tubes are not rippled.

2.)    When buying a complete bike, look at the components. I built and sold frames to bicycle dealers who then built them into complete bikes. Often they were assembled with cheaper components to keep the cost down. The idea being that the owner would upgrade later. This rarely happened, so when such a bike comes up for sale, bear in mind that the frame is the only thing of value. The rest of the bike’s components have little resale worth.

3.)    Most top of the line racing bikes built back in the day had tubular tires, nice lightweight clinchers were not available back then. Keep in mind you may have to re-build or replace the wheels and buy tires. Wheels for tubulars (Sprint rims.) do have some resale value on eBay, especially if they are in good condition. You may be able to recoup a large part of the cost of replacing the wheels and tires.

4.)    There were more frames built in the mid sizes. But then again it is the mid sizes that are still in demand today so there will be more people bidding. There were fewer very small and the very large frames built, so these will come up for sale less often. But again the small and larger sizes are in less demand. You may get a bargain because you are the only one bidding, but if there are more than one bidder the price may go high.

5.)    Don’t get carried away. Decide ahead of time how much you are prepared to spend and stick with it. If you get beat by $3.00 it does not mean if you had bid $4.00 more you would have got it. The other guy may have been prepared to go much higher, you were the second highest bidder and when your highest bid was reached, the next guy got it for just $3.00 more.

6.)    Don’t bid early. All that does is push the price up. The only exception is, if you can’t be home when the auction ends. Enter the highest amount you are prepared to pay just before the action ends. This does two things, it gives others less time to counter bid.

Possibly more important, if you are outbid, you don’t have time to counter again. Because be honest, you decided before hand how far you were prepared to go. There should be no regrets, it sold for more than you were prepared to pay.

If you have regrets, then you were actually prepared to go higher, and probably should have done so. Either way you will just have wait for the next one to come along, and it will. There is always another day.

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Fuso Components

I am often asked, “What was the standard component package on the Fuso?” or John Howard, or Recherché.

The answer: There was no standard component package. The reason, I only sold frames, not complete bikes. The frames were ordered by bicycle dealers, usually for a specific customer, who then chose the components and the bike shop ordered these in and built the bike.

Often what happened was the customer could not afford an all Campagnolo or Shimano Dura-Ace equipped bike. So the dealer built the bike with lower priced components like Sugino, Sun Tour, or Shimano 600.

The thinking was, (And I agreed.) the frame is what determines how the bike fits, handles, and feels to the rider. Wheels are the next important factor, but after that a Sugino crankset, or cheaper pedals will, for the most part, feel no different than Campagnolo. The main difference is the quality of finish and the durability of the product, not so much in the ride quality.

The theory was, get a newcomer on a quality frame, get them hooked on cycling and they would come back and upgrade to a better quality component later. This was a smart business move for the Bike Dealer, and it sold frames for me.

For about the same price as say a mid range Japanese or European import, a customer could get on one of my frames with lower priced components. And of course when the customer compared the mid range import and my bike on a test ride they could feel the difference.

That was the theory. In reality what happened in many cases, the bike purchase was an impulse thing, and after a short period, the bike ended up sitting in the garage where many still languish to this day.

From time to time such a bike comes up on eBay, often with a mish-mosh of cheap components. If you are buying such a bike, realize that you are basically buying it for the frame. If you strip the components to replace them with, say Campagnolo; these left over parts will have little or no resale value.

On the other hand, many may not want such a bike. If you can buy it at a bargain price, you can ride as originally intended and upgrade the components as they become available.

All frames I built were measured center to top which is approximately 2 cm. more that the center to center measurement. For example frame stamped 58 under the bottom bracket shell, would measure 56 cm. center to center. Also, if it is a Fuso and you ask the seller for the frame number, you canlink to my website here and get the approximate date it was built.